Since the church discontinued use of this phrase 8 years before I went through an endowment session, and it is no longer considered a part of that religious practice, I didn't see any problem using it here. I had to think about that, though. This post is a result of thinking a bit more on this phrase after I responded to a comment from William Tychonievich on my last post. He had brought up "pay" as a tie to Pi (through the Hebrew word "pe", I guess), and also brought up "ale" as a form of "el". Seeing two of the three words that comprise Pay Lay Ale, and the fact he asked if I got his drift, seemed to me to indicate that he was referring to this phrase without writing it. So, I responded by also referring to the phrase without actually writing it (he may have actually not been referring to this - that was just my guess).
But I thought later that this didn't make much sense - if the LDS church stopped using it, and it wasn't part of any ceremony or promises I made at whatever point, then it seemed that there wasn't an issue with using it here that would offend anyone. In other words, it seems like it is in the public domain.
In his comment, William noted that Pe means 'mouth', and the letter for Pe is what Pi is derived from (I will take his word on it - I myself don't know and haven't independently looked that up). In response I noted that this would work out well with Pi, since I had thought that the symbol of Pi looked to be a gate, door, or passageway, and that one meaning of 'mouth' is exactly that. I also noted that Pe in Elvish also means 'mouth', which is interesting.
It turns out several people assume Pay Lay Ale is based on the Hebrew Pe le-El, which would mean "Mouth to God" in Hebrew. This would seem to fit with the English words the Mormons replaced the phrase with post-1990, and in something like speaking to God, and having God hear you.
However, given the fact that mouth can mean an opening, door, or gate, perhaps the 1990 change or revision completely removed one layer of meaning to that phrase, which could be an important one. Turning mouth into a door, we have that phrase mean something like "Gate to God" or "Door to God".
For those familiar with the temple endowment, and where this phrase was said in that ceremony, and also where the new phrase that replaced it is still said, interpreting Pay Lay Ale as meaning something like a door or gate to God actually fits quite nicely.
Indeed, there seems to be two components that are involved in Adam's final redemption in the temple ceremony. One is to be able to converse with the Lord through a veil, and the other is to actually be admitted into his presence. To speak, and then to enter, to put it simply. The current phrase that replaced Pay Lay Ale in 1990 gets at the first part (conversing with the Lord, or requesting to be heard), but misses the second (does not discuss a gate or door to enter through).
What I am suggesting is that, just taking the phrase of Pe le-El in its Hebrew form, we may have a double-meaning that gets at both of the required events in Adam's salvation. The first is to be able to actually engage in a conversation with God, in which words from one's own mouth are heard in Heaven, and similarly Heaven's words are heard on Earth. Mouth to God. The second is to be able to actually enter the place where God resides - entering in by the door that leads there, this door being the other meaning of Mouth to God.
It gets even more interesting when we look at these words as Elvish (of course!), or having additional Elvish meaning.
As mentioned above, in my response to WJT, I noted that "Pe" also means mouth in Elvish. This inspired me to look at the other two words and see what we get. Here is what I have:
Pe = MouthLe = with (OR method/ manner)El = Star
In this view, we will keep the double meaning of Mouth - a thing to converse with as well as an opening or door in which to enter.
We then have 'with', and method or manner work here as well (meaning the way in which something is done), because El becomes the thing that enables or is the manner by which the Mouth is either used or entered.
On this blog "star", at least in specific contexts, is synonymous with a Stone. Thus, in this case, I think we can have star mean stone without really any gymnastics or creative twisting (it is at least consistent with how I have used it in the past).
I have also had Stones, specifically El-Anor, as part of communication (i.e., linking with the Ithil Stone and conversing directly between Heaven and our world) as well as travel (represented as a car and also as a key that unlocks doors or gates).
In other words, we have already been discussing here, quite literally, at least one Star-Stone as a method or means by which one both 'mouths' to Heaven and also enters it. Pay Lay Ale.
Joseph Smith taught that every one who enters the Celestial Kingdom receives their own stone. Perhaps it is then through many such stones that Pay Lay Ale becomes a reality for many? It could be, but I guess that depends on whether such stones are received before or after such an entrance occurs.
Also of interest, the LDS temple endowment ceremony and drama follows a man named Adam, who is identified as Michael (Adam seemingly can refer to one Man or to many Men). It is Michael's journey we follow as he goes to converse through the veil, and then go through it. In my story, it is Faramir who is known as Michael (see the post Michael Jackson and the Stone, for one example), and so understanding Pay Lay Ale/ Pe le-El as referring to a Stone that allows for conversation with and entrance into Heaven is consistent and makes sense in that framework as well.
Anyway, just some quick thoughts I had, and the overall gist seems to tie very well to recent posts, including the Kirtland Temple and Pi.
Very interesting analysis, and yes of course that's the phrase I was referring to. I think you're right, though, that we might as well just say it openly. Like the Ammonites, we're not bound by our parents' vows.
ReplyDeleteI was aware of the "mouth to God" reading but hadn't thought of the second meaning you propose. It makes a lot of sense. "Hellmouth" as the entrance to hell was a common theme in Anglo-Saxon art, so a corresponding "mouth to God" seems reasonable.
In John Dee's 1583 Krakow vision (subject of numerous syncs), the Spirit of God appears in the form of a great whale with many eyes, and they are instructed to enter its mouth:
The Firmament and the waters were joyned together, and the Whale CAME, like unto a legion of stormes: or as the bottomless Cave of the North when it is opened: and she was full of eyes on every side.
The Prophet said, Stand still, but they trembled. The waters sank, and fell suddenly away, so that the Whale lay upon the Hill, roaring like a Cave of Lions, and the Prophet took them by the hands, and led them to the Whales mouth, saying, Go in, but they trembled vehemently; He said unto them the second time, Go in: and they durst not. And he sware unto them, and they entred in, and he lifted up his voyce, and cried mightily, Come away, and, lo, they stood before him richer than an Emperours Throne, for unto him that was naked, were clothes given: unto him that was a child and a man, were 12 gates opened. And the Prophet cried mightily, and said, This Whale cannot die; and lifted up his voyce again and said: Within this Whale are many Chambers, and secret dwelling places, which I will divide betwixt you on the right side (unto the which was a child, and now a man) there are twelve opened, but unto thee that hast provided strange Garments for thy self, and not such as men use to wear, I will give thee head, hart, and left side, whose places are 46. You shall enter, and be possessed this day together: And behold, the son shall return again 21 times, and in one year, but not all at one time. You shalt depart hence into a dwelling that shall be all one: where there is no end, the place of comfort and inspeakable glorie.
https://narrowdesert.blogspot.com/2022/03/i-posted-my-many-eyed-whale-dream-on.html
John Dee, if you're not aware, was an early user of seer-stones, and his career foreshadowed that of Joseph Smith in several ways.
https://narrowdesert.blogspot.com/2022/06/john-dee-vs-joseph-smith.html
I remember reading the first post you linked because you also included it in the comments to my Star Trek/ Wrath of Khan post, where I mentioned DeForest Kelley.
ReplyDeletehttps://coatofskins.blogspot.com/2024/02/the-wrath-of-saruman-khan-and-free-willy.html
The whale connection was interesting given my writing on the movie Free Willy and the comparison with the Holy Ghost.
That second post I hadn't read before. I thought the common focus on Enoch was interesting, as was the mention of Uriel in Dee's visions. Uriel came up for me in my 2022 words (Feb. 3). I included those specific words two posts in December:
https://coatofskins.blogspot.com/2023/12/jan-feb-2022-words-part-2-future-family.html
https://coatofskins.blogspot.com/2023/12/sar-gu-omar-this-story-element-part-of.html
However, I think Uriel, rather than an angel in my words, might be another name or play on words for the Sun Stone/ El-Anor. The elvish translation for Uriel is pretty straightforward:
Uri = Sun
El = Star
Sun-Star, which is equivalent to El-Anor.
In those words, Uriel/ El-Anor seem to be involved in the melting or 'baking' of ice, and I imagine that this could refer to the freeing of Numenor from its icy prison (resulting from that world being buried under the wave), but it could also be something else, I guess. "Helcar" is what is mentioned as being 'baked', and Helcar translates directly from Elvish as:
Hel = to freeze
Car/ Kar = house (or build, make, etc. or even head, as in the top of something)
So, a frozen house or frozen top is baked, which reverses or undoes its fate, which I talked a bit about in those posts - just as one possibility, though. Here is the entire phrase in case someone doesn't want to click to the posts:
Vaha isi vaha ein urendi sufficient to conclude a state of equilibrium mas helcar uriel domo Abraham reciprocal saw