Friday, September 1, 2023

The Return of the King: Salmar, Thingol, Aragorn, and 'John'

I think this is the last post I need to do based on the Omar Amillo-Brigham outline I had posted earlier.  I had gone out of order a bit and saved some of my thoughts regarding Thingol for last.  


There are quite a few connections to be made here, and it risks getting even more convoluted than my other posts.  So, I think I am going to list down things in bullet form below, perhaps elaborate a bit more on them, and then call it good for now.   I can always follow up with more detailed posts on certain elements based on where I think more thoughts or information might be good, and this way I avoid feeling like I need to write a novel here.


OK, so here is a summary with respect to Salmar-Thingol and why he was brought up in the context of Omar-Dairon (just going to dump a bit of a laundry list in a somewhat sensible order, so apologies in advance):

  • Salmar, an Ainu mentioned as the twin brother Omar, would actually be 'born' as Thingol in Middle Earth (I say born in quotes because he would have been among the first Elves in their awakening, and so I am not sure if we should call than born, or something else).
  • Thingol would also welcome or find Dairon as part of this first awakening, and Dairon would become basically an adopted son to he and Melian, and also his head minstrel, loremaster, and advisor.
  • Thingol would ultimately tarry in Middle Earth in order to prepare a way for Eru-Jesus.  He would have seen or heard enough of the music to understand that Eru would come into the world, and he wanted to prepare a place for him to do so
  • Doriath was his attempt at such a place.  There, he and Melian would build a place that would welcome things of Light (but also keep out darkness through Melian's girdle).  Beren's marriage to Luthien and subsequent birth of Dior (Joseph) and his marriage to Nimloth (Asenath) was meant to be the start of a place where the Family of Light would be born and gather.
  • This effort was delayed and then defeated through internal intrigue by Dairon (as written of in earlier posts, though the Silmaril and events surrounding it)
  • Thingol's mission and desire remained even after death, however, and he would later be reborn as Aragorn
  • Thingol-Aragorn's situation with Arwen was a bit of cosmic karma based on the events he put into motion a lifetime earlier with Beren and Luthien.  Thingol would be living the same situation he put Beren through, in desiring to marry one of the Eldar, and needing to complete a quest before this was possible.  (Note also that Melian-Arwen would have been born through the line that she had started as a Maia, becoming her own great great granddaughter!)
  • Aragorn's victory over Sauron represented the elimination of evil from his old kingdom, Sauron having built Mordor in the lands of what once had been Doriath.  Thus, the Return of the King represents the return of Thingol and Melian as king and queen in the form of Aragorn and Arwen
  • Aragorn would die, but would be born again as John, fulfilling his desire to prepare a way for Jesus by accompanying him into this life and being instrumental in helping Jesus both remember who he was and support him in his work here.
  • Aragorn-John would go on to be blessed by Jesus to remain on this earth until he would return again, this being John's desire to be the one to remain and work here in order to see that happen.
  • John the Baptist and John the Apostle/ Revelator are actually the same person, and history has incorrectly split them into two. 
  • One basis for this mistake is the legend of the Baptist's beheading, and thus him not being able to tarry on earth.  The legend, however, was based on his beheading in an earlier life (as Thingol, at the hands of his betrayers).  Thus the confounding of these stories has created two Johns, when they are in fact the same.
  • Eru-Jesus and Thingol-Aragon-John were actually kin (likely brothers) from that time period long before this earth was created.  John thus was the one noted as beloved of Jesus likely because of the strong bond and connection that joined them.
  • In that Great Before, Thingol and Melian would have had Ilmare and Irmo (Eowyn and Joseph/ Dior) as children, while as stated before, Eru would have had Eonwe and Este (Faramir and Nimloth/ Asenath) as his children.  The marriage of these two sets of siblings also represents the joining of Eru and Thingol-John's families/ houses (very similar to how they would go on to be born among the Valar and also join their houses together).



As I read the list above again, I realize this probably makes absolutely no sense!


But, strangely enough, I think in broad strokes I have captured some highlights as best I can related to Thingol's story, and I guess we can work out some details later, or continue to work them into other topics ... my guess is that they will come out as I write about other things, and we can see how this all fits together (or not).  


A few things on the above that are a bit surprising to think about (and again, they could be wrong - just exploring at this point... doesn't have to be more than that):


Two vs one John.  

I mentioned that there actually isn't a difference between the Baptist and the Apostle/ Revelator in this version of the story.  This thought has been on my mind for some time now, and I do sometimes go back and forth, but where I have landed on now is that there is one John.  The notion that there are two would be based on incorrect traditions and stories, in this case.  


As one example of how things might have become mixed up, there is the strange tale of the Baptist's fate is that he was beheaded at the demand of Herodius.  I will hypothesize that this garbled tale might actually be based on Thingol's own beheading during events at Doriath, thus creating the need for two John's in the New Testament - the one who died, and the one who lived (and still lives).  


I am not married to this thought, but it is where I currently lean.  The Baptist seems to serve no more role than baptizing Jesus and then getting out of the way of the story, and I think there is actually much more to him and his story than that, so this seems to fit into that overall belief a bit better.


Doriath. 

I am also suggesting that there is more to both Thingol and Doriath than is captured in the Silmarillion or other writings.  As one additional thing not mentioned yet, I believe Beren is Manwe born as a man, and Luthien is Varda.   They in turn welcome Dior as their son (Irmo, who was also their son in Aman) and he marries Nimloth (who, joined in marriage, represent one set of the two heads of the Family of Light).


Thingol and Melian are creating something that is building and gathering that family in that place on Middle Earth.  If it had been successful, this story we currently occupy may have been much shorter.  It would at least have been very different.  As it was, Dairon completely disrupted those plans through intrigue and betrayal, and we continue on the 'harder road'.


Aragorn

It may be surprising to think of Thingol reincarnated as Aragorn.  It was to me at least, but it makes more sense now (I think), and not just because of the interesting karma twist with him now being in the same position that his son-in-law Beren found himself in.  Various story elements, such as the Paths of the Dead, his prophetic name of Elessar, and his overall story's positioning as a very Jesus-like arc make more sense to me in this light.  Even his interactions with Eowyn make more sense in understanding there is a bond there based on some deeper connection.


Eru-Jesus and Thingol as brothers

Again, kind of a strange concept, and I will just mention this in light of the larger point that there is a whole history of our lives, our relationships with each other, etc. from a time long before this one that has been completely lost.  We live here in this story as both fractured souls, but also as fractured, scattered, and separated families.  Part of what Heaven will be, I think, is remembering these lives and relationships and being reunited as part of those families, similar to how it was before, but just better now having been able to defeat the darkness that would have been present even back then (and perhaps having almost destroyed us if not for Eru's intervention and plan).



In any case, some things to consider.  The fact that Thingol might be associated with these Beings, and that what he was trying to accomplish in Doriath was in harmony with his ultimate desire to both prepare the way for Eru-Jesus as well as reunite his family, makes the betrayal by Dairon-Brigham at Doriath an even greater tragedy, and this is why I wanted to at least outline some of this in the context of those other posts.


I think this should hopefully conclude my Dairon-Brigham posts for now, at least ones focused on him or derived by understanding his actions and intents.  But he will continue to come up as I put some other thoughts down about characters and events... hopefully just not as frequently.

6 comments:

  1. Any thoughts on the "daughter of Jared" story in Ether 8 which so closely parallels the story of John's decapitation?

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  2. I recently thought about this too. That the Johns would actually be the same person, with Lazarus this person as well. But my understanding is that John/Lazarus would have then died at some point after being spiritually perfected + revived (by prayer to God) by Jesus. The remarkable thing is the spiritual perfection caused by Jesus (permanent Good-orientation aka sinlessness ie only capable of contributing to Good, not capable of destroying it). My understanding is that God could easily cause any physical event including 'resurrection' meaning restoration of a body. No need to wait until only 2000 years ago.

    I suppose it's possible that Jesus had been making people sinless from before his incarnation of Jesus, and that Jesus just began Christianity during that incarnation. Maybe that was just the point at which it was deemed desirable to introduce a movement of that kind.

    With my understanding that Frodo would correspond to Jesus, I wonder about Sam as John.

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  3. WJT:

    I hadn't put much thought into it until you mentioned it, but here is a quick stab:

    Akish in this 'daughter of Jared' story gave them these oaths that Moroni said were given to them 'of old who also sought power'... I place the Jaredite history Old World history squarely in Tolkien's Middle Earth, and thus 'those of old' include those characters involved in the 1st and 2nd ages (and also before). Thhis would involve Dairon's betrayal of Thingol, which in itself was a secret combination to gain power.

    So, the garbled account of John's execution in the NT may (and in my opinion is) based on the truer account of Thingol losing his head, and the account in Ether 8 involves similar oaths and events because Thingol-John's murder and decapitation was one of the events and secret combinations that the Ether 8 characters were basing their actions on.

    Why they are both based on a woman dancing and requesting these decapitations, I don't know. It seems that lust seems to drive this secret combination, so maybe that is just one of the common tools used? In the case of Dairon-Wormtongue, I already mentioned his possible crime against Nimloth, and his desire for Eowyn, and that this is one of his driving motivations.

    Welcome your thoughts also if you have other ideas.

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  4. ben:

    Before this earth, Jesus stood among both souls (spirits + bodies) and spirits, and called individuals within both groups "Good".

    I don't believe Jesus is trying to make us or turn us into something that we were not already before. The Book of Mormon makes a big deal about 'restoration'. I take this restoration as Beings brought back into their natural state, which for many is Good (and for others is evil).

    The resurrection seems to allow for Good to be gathered again and restored to being Good, and evil to also be gathered but to be removed to a place or state of being where they cannot harm Good anymore.

    On Jesus and multiple reincarnations, his purpose was to come into this earth to bring the resurrection to pass, and this just required one instance of him being born as a Man (though not limiting his visits and appearances in other forms). Thus, while I see multiple lives for many others, I only see one for him in my current story.

    On Frodo, I view him as JRR Tolkien (not Jesus), and this post puts forward my opinion that Aragon is also John. That would preclude Sam from being John since he and Aragorn overlap, but that's not to say its not worth you exploring a bit if you feel good about it and seeing if it goes anywhere.

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    1. WW:

      It's possible that my set-up is quite different from yours so we might be talking past each other a little bit.

      My understanding is that God can pretty much just make physical things happen with his vast intelligence. So mortality would be a deliberately rough situation, descended into for learning. Mortality itself is things coming to a point. The entropic (evil) conditions of mortality are descended upon by evil beings for the opportunity of doing evil, this is anticipated by and exploited by God to help everyone learn (including those evil beings).

      "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

      So entropy might not be an inherent fact of reality, but something contrived by God for the purpose of spiritual learning. It would be like God has people at a jog (underlying roughness of mortality), and he gets them to sprint every now and then (for spiritual learning), and every now and then throws water over them to cool them down etc. The purpose of the underlying unpleasantness of the whole thing would be to get people in the mood for difficult events they need to be subjected to for learning.

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  5. Ben:

    I don't have any doubt our approach or set-up to this story is very different.

    Just addressing your comment here (again, not really in scope of the post), I cannot get onboard with the view that God is a Being who deliberately creates misery, pain, or rough situations for the sake of teaching people. This sounds like a horrible and evil Being who I don't want any part of.



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