Jerusalem and Ether's words potentially challenging its location as Tirion

So, in the story in my head, and as I tried to diagram out a few posts ago, we have (at least) two Holy Places that people are gathered to:  "Jerusalem" which would be Tirion-Kor on Valinor, and the "New Jerusalem" on Eressea.  Both of these places, then, are not on our own world, but people would leave this world and be brought to one of those two places.

The more I think about the New Jerusalem in Eressea, the more I like it, at least with respect to keeping things internally consistent.  Asenath and Joseph are residing in the vicinity of Eressea (in this story), it is said in the Book of Mormon that the New Jerusalem is specifically for Joseph's "House", and this is all supposed to happen on the Promised Land, which is where we have Lehi being brought to and promised an inheritance in.  So, Promised Land = Eressea #1 and #2 in this story, and there is enough going for it I am holding on to it for a bit and seeing where it goes, with all of its implications, including the interplanetary travel of the Jaredites, Lehites, and Mulekites.

The second Holy Place of Jerusalem, however, gets a bit more tricky to have in Tirion-Kor without blowing up a whole lot of received tradition, and in trying to have things 'make sense'.

The major issue in my mind, currently, comes out of Ether's words as summarized by Moroni in Ether 13.  Recall quickly that I have Ether as also the same Being as Faramir-Abinadi, and the fact that he was able to see so much, apparently (we are going off Moroni's words here - we don't have these words except for Moroni's brief summary), I think reinforces in my mind that has some future role to play in all of that.  In any case, here is what Moroni says:

Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake concerning a New Jerusalem upon this land.

And he spake also concerning the house of Israel, and the Jerusalem from whence Lehi should come—after it should be destroyed it should be built up again, a holy city unto the Lord; wherefore, it could not be a new Jerusalem for it had been in a time of old; but it should be built up again, and become a holy city of the Lord; and it should be built unto the house of Israel

.... 

And then also cometh the Jerusalem of old; and the inhabitants thereof, blessed are they, for they have been washed in the blood of the Lamb; and they are they who were scattered and gathered in from the four quarters of the earth, and from the north countries, and are partakers of the fulfilling of the covenant which God made with their father, Abraham.

In this summary, Ether is said to equate the Jerusalem that should be destroyed and built up again, and that Israel would gather to from all over, with the same Jerusalem that Lehi departed from.

You can maybe see the predicament.  Our traditions and stories have Lehi and his family departing from a city called Jerusalem currently in the Middle East of our world.  If that is right, then based on Moroni's interpretation of Ether's words, then that is also where the Holy Place - Jerusalem - will be rebuilt and Israel will gather to.  In other words, it can't be Tirion-Kor.

One out to this that went through my mind is that perhaps Moroni misunderstood Ether.  It is possible I suppose, but I don't think that is an easy case to make.  He has had access to all of Ether's records, as well as to the Brother of Jared's writings, and he has had Jesus and the Three Disciples minister to him about various things.  I am going to guess he is he understood very well what Ether meant.  In fact, the way he wrote "from when Lehi should come" seems to mean he is summarizing a specific prophecy, likely very similar if not the same as to what he captured Ether telling Coriantumr about a people being brought from another land to replace the Jaredites:

And in the second year the word of the Lord came to Ether, that he should go and prophesy unto Coriantumr that, if he would repent, and all his household, the Lord would give unto him his kingdom and spare the people—

Otherwise they should be destroyed, and all his household save it were himself. And he should only live to see the fulfilling of the prophecies which had been spoken concerning another people receiving the land for their inheritance; and Coriantumr should receive a burial by them; and every soul should be destroyed save it were Coriantumr.

 So, for our purposes, I am going to assume that Ether saw the group that would come, understood this was Jerusalem, and this was the same Jerusalem that would be rebuilt and become a Holy Place - the "Jerusalem of Old".  And Moroni then also captured the spirit of that correctly.

This then puts a nail in the coffin of a 'multiple Jerusalem' idea in considering these places (i.e., that the future Holy Place is different than Lehi's homeland), and so wherever I have THE Jerusalem, I need to also have Lehi departing from.

Eliminating a potential mistake on Moroni's part as an option, I am left with two paths forward (I think - let me know if I have missed anything);

1. Remove Tirion-Kor from consideration, and place it back in modern day Israel/ Middle East to match up with current tradition, in general (Lehites were on our world)
2. Continue with Tirion-Kor as Jerusalem, and work through the implications (which are extensive!)

Path #1 is definitely a possibility - you could even work it where some other Middle-Earth city is that Jerusalem (for example, Leo commented in an earlier post about the possibility of Gondolin being Jerusalem-type city).  I am sure I can come with a narrative to support something.

However, I don't like it for the sole reason that my understanding is that Israel and those gathered to these Holy Places are 'lifted up' and removed or rescued from this Earth in preparation for future events.  Leaving them here on this world defeats that narrative, obviously.  And maybe that is OK, but I would just need to work through that, and other things.

In other words, no matter which path I take, something is going to have to get re-shuffled and reconsidered, and there really isn't a great or very apparent solution I can see at the moment.

So, in light of that, seeing we are on a fork in the road and there isn't a penalty to seeing how far we push things (we can always double back, and it looks like there is a chance we have to), we might as well fully call out what would have to be true or what you would have to make work in order for Path #2 - Tirion-Kor as Jerusalem - to be true.

First, obviously, we would have to place Lehi, Nephi, and company in Valinor, and specifically in the area around Tirion.  This is a big deal, clearly, as we will now have to account for Beings who identify as Men, who die, kill others, plot, steal, etc. living in probably what our closest version of Heaven would be.

For those not completely familiar with the rules around lands in Tolkien's writings, Men living on Valinor is very much not allowed (usually), at least during our last peak into that place.  That peak would have happened when the Men of Pharazon set foot on the Undying Lands, and were thus cursed, buried, and then Valinor and Eressea #1 were raised far away from there.   Prior to that, Earendil would have been the last 'Man' - he was half man, half elf - to be allowed onto Valinor.  And, I guess to be complete, immediately prior to Earendil would have been Earendil's father, Tuor, who as a Man was allowed to stay in Valinor.

So, there were some exceptions, notably Tuor (but my guess is he wasn't 'just' a Man), but the point is that we don't have large populations of Men, or mortals, living on Valinor as late as the 2nd Age.

Thus, there would have had to have been a significant change in the affairs of Valinor to have the situation we find Lehi and his family living in by the time our story reaches them.  Not only just the presence of Men, but also the fact that we have Beings like Laban and the apparent Secret Combination that is implied with the "Elders of Jews", a group the Laban liked to hang out with at night and that lived in Jerusalem at that time.  These people were bad news, and sought to kill Lehi and other prophets.

In other words, this is not the Tirion that we would have envisioned continuing on with Finarfin and the Noldor who stayed with him at the beginning of the 1st age.  This is a completely different place, and we would need to have a story for how it got to be that way (and where did all of the Good Guys go if they are no longer there?).

We would also have to re-imagine Jerusalem's destruction in this light.  Rather than this being the work of Babylonians as we understand them (a middle-eastern civilization on this world), all of a sudden it is more like of the Babylon 5, space-odyssey variety that we have to imagine.  Some other 'space' or other-worldly civilization that destroys Tirion-Kor and carries these people away?

It gets worse, though, at least with respect to having to turn over tradition to make Jerusalem-as-Tirion work.  Several Book of Mormon prophets had some pretty specific prophecies about Jesus' birth that included the location.  Here is one from Alma (in Alma 7):

But behold, the Spirit hath said this much unto me, saying: Cry unto this people, saying—Repent ye, and prepare the way of the Lord, and walk in his paths, which are straight; for behold, the kingdom of heaven is at hand, and the Son of God cometh upon the face of the earth.

And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

 Pretty clear - Jesus will be born in Jerusalem, and this is the same place that Lehi came from.

So, we would also have to create a new story that has Jesus being not born on this world, but on Valinor, near Tirion.

So, to tally some things we would need to think through or have a story around in order to ultimately make this work, I have summarized a few things for starters (likely more will come to mind):

• Explain how mortals came to live in Tirion
• Explain how some of these mortals became pretty evil people (e.g., Laban, Elders of the Jews)
• Create story of the destruction of Jerusalem-Tirion, who Babylon actually is, and how they ended up returning
• Define who the "Jews" were that lived there and will return
• Figure out where other Good Guys are if not in Valinor ,or at least around Tirion (if they are anywhere as a group) 
• Place Jesus in Valinor (at least his birth, ministry, and death... it doesn't mean he couldn't have lived elsewhere for a time)

Anyway, just a few little odds and ends... no big deal.

In all seriousness, in writing some of these out, I do actually have some ideas for some, but not all, so we will see.   It seemed a more daunting list before I wrote this sample out.  

In some future posts I will try to pick at these a bit and see if there could be something there.  Let me know if I missed any issues or story elements that would need to be changed in having Jerusalem be Tirion.  I can add them to the list.  

We may as well be thorough in listing out all that would have to be accounted for and changed in pursuing this particular story.  And it may well be that the answers don't materialize, and that would be OK, there are other options, but it still seems worthwhile exploring for now.

And actually, to end on a glass-half-full type of comment, besides issues, there are some things that are actually much more explainable with this story, so its not like its completely one-sided.  I will try to call those out also as I continue to think on this.