"The Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice": Jesus never showing himself on our Gentile world

During his time with the people at Bountiful, Jesus makes a statement regarding the Gentiles that if we take at face value both calls into serious doubt narratives as found in the New Testament as well as potentially supports the notion that he was not on this world.  

So, let's get into it.

In 3 Nephi 15, Jesus concludes a series of teachings similar to what we know of as the Sermon on the Mount in the Gospels.  I think it would have to be another post at some point that explores just why we see that sermon show up in 3 Nephi (or why other parts of the Bible show up, for that matter) but to give a quick summary of my own current view:  the Book of Mormon is a translated text with a purpose and audience in mind.  A portion of that audience were 1800s Christians who viewed the Bible as the infallible word of God.  

We should know differently about the Bible today, and I think were the Book of Mormon to be translated today, it would read differently - there would be fewer direct Bible references and quotes, because the audience would be more ready to accept alternative records or sources beyond the Bible for these stories and teachings.  That wasn't the case in Joseph Smith's day, and so I think a fine line was walked in creating an English text that taught new things, but yet could seem familiar and accessible to those who would not give up their Bibles.  Or something like that.  Meaning it may have been a conscious choice to pull in so much Bible text (including names); although perhaps not the best solution for those of us reading it in the 21st century, those individuals in the 1800s had to have their chance, too, and that approach to translation choice may have been their best shot.

In any case, following Jesus' initial set of teachings to everybody that was gathered at Bountiful, he turns to the 12 Disciples and gives a bit more background as to the state of those at Tirion (I am going to substitute Tirion in for Jerusalem in my references just to see how it works out, as a heads up), and what they do and do not know.

He confirms that he told them that he would visit other sheep, but that those at Tirion misunderstood what he was saying.  Jesus was talking about "Israel" or other tribes or groups of Israel, but those at Tirion assumed he was talking about Gentiles.

Here is what Mormon summarizes Jesus as having said in that latter verses of 3 Nephi 15 (I apologize - I am going to insert several verses, so it is a bit long and not all of it will I use directly for this post, but it is all still interesting to think differently about in light of this Tirion-Jerusalem concept):

And behold, this is the land of your inheritance; and the Father hath given it unto you.

And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem.

Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell unto them concerning the other tribes of the house of Israel, whom the Father hath led away out of the land.

This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them:

That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them.

But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you.

And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them.

And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching.

And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.

But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me.

I've bolded the most relevant verse above that I am going to use to explore a few things, but before I get to that specifically, I want to just think out loud about a few things.

In the misunderstanding of those at Tirion, it isn't that there aren't other 'lands' and people for Jesus to go visit - that isn't what they don't believe or know about.  They just think all of these other lands are populated by Gentiles.

Additionally, it seems that the people at Tirion may have also then understood that their own path was like that of Jesus'.  He was going to other lands (worlds) to teach people, who they assumed were Gentiles, just as they were going to other worlds to teach Gentiles.  Meaning, it seems possible that those at Tirion, including the 12 Disciples he would have chosen there, assumed that a resurrected Jesus was going to be assisting them in their ministry - visiting other Gentile lands just as they were.  If they were dividing up lands of Gentiles to go visit, Jesus was taking on a few of those himself, in their understanding.

Thus, if the above reasoning is true, it seems that Tirion would have been aware of other Gentile worlds (or at least have been made aware of them by Jesus), but that there were hidden worlds or lands that they didn't know anything about, and that all of these lands, worlds, islands, whatever you want to call them, were the places where different branches of Israel (or "Jews", meaning from Jerusalem-Tirion) were taken to.

The truth of the arrangement is that Jesus creates a clear delineation of responsibilities - the 12 Disciples go to all of the lands or worlds of the Gentiles, while Jesus himself will go to all of the lands or worlds of scattered 'Israel'. He is explaining this clearly to the Disciples at Bountiful, but this fact is apparently what the Disciples or group at Tirion didn't fully grasp or ask additional detail about.

I recognize that in the above thoughts I jumped right to other 'worlds' as being the lands that Jesus and the 'Jerusalem' disciples were to go to.  Yes, you could make the discourse in line with the traditional narrative, that this just relates to our world, and that the Disciples were basically being sent to Europe, Asia, wherever, and that Jesus was headed over to the Americas.  I think there are two things to consider in that view, though, based on what Jesus is confirming in his discussion, and even in the details that he recounts.

First, Jesus says and confirms that he ascended into Heaven after he taught those at Tirion, and that it seems the people there understood he was going to visit Gentiles.  Now, it may be they thought he was flying to another part of Earth after visiting the Father, but it is just as easy, if not easier (for me at the moment), to think that they understood he was leaving their world to go visit Gentiles (in their misunderstanding) on another world in conjunction with or in a trip not completely unrelated to visiting his Father who was also somewhere in the sky, and that he had to ascend to.

Second, Jesus confirms to those at Bountiful that there are even more groups of Israel that have been led out of Tirion, he also needs to go visit them, and they aren't anywhere around the lands of the Lehites or back around the lands of "Jerusalem".  If that was meant to be somewhere on this world, where would that be, exactly?  Who?  It doesn't make sense to me really, particularly now.  

Later in 3 Nephi 17, Jesus speaks of the need to visit his Father and these other lost sheep in the same breath or in the same visit.  He is going to leave the people at Bountiful for the evening, visit his Father, show himself to the other sheep, and then come back tomorrow.  This is how he puts it:

Therefore, go ye unto your homes, and ponder upon the things which I have said, and ask of the Father, in my name, that ye may understand, and prepare your minds for the morrow, and I come unto you again.

But now I go unto the Father, and also to show myself unto the lost tribes of Israel, for they are not lost unto the Father, for he knoweth whither he hath taken them.

The people don't want him to go yet, so he delays his departure, heals their sick, shares a sacred meal with bread and wine that the disciples pulled together (the next day he will share bread and wine he has returned from another world with), and then finally ascends to heaven in order to go visit his Father and these other sheep.

With the description of him ascending to the sky in order to make those visits, it doesn't seem unreasonable to think he is heading to other worlds.  And because he also confirmed that he ascended to his Father the first time, when he left Tirion, it doesn't seem too out there to think that his visit to those at Bountiful on the 'Promised Land' also involved a heavenly voyage or passage.

I mean, it's not a conclusive detail, I know, and you can imagine Jesus' statements about other people and lands as having to do just this earth, for sure, but I am just pointing out it isn't so crazy to think that these lands he is talking about are in fact worlds that one must ascend up into the sky to reach.  That is the point I am trying to make - that it is at least imaginable and consistent with what Jesus is recorded as saying and doing.

And those  considerations are even without really thinking through the implications of Jesus' statement about the Gentiles, and his unwillingness to visit or speak to them, which is what I introduced this post with and is what we will dive into right now.

Jesus never showing himself to the Gentiles

I bolded the statement in that first excerpt from 3 Nephi 15 where Jesus says that he will never manifest himself to the Gentiles.  They will never hear his voice.  

This is a pretty significant statement, again if taken at face value.  It also is completely inconsistent or incompatible with several narratives of the New Testament, likely including Jesus' presence in the Middle-east 2,000 years ago.

Pontius Pilate and the Romans, for example, we can completely throw out the window if Jesus meant what he said.  Nor can we place him in any land where Gentiles might be found.  Now, I am assuming for this path of thinking that we use a 'traditional' definition of Gentile as normally defined as non-Jewish in terms of how Jewish people are known and identified today.  I actually don't think this (that will be the subject of one of the other follow-up posts on this topic), but it is a good definition to use to show the incompatibility of Jesus' statement regarding the Gentiles and both the Bible stories as we know them as well as his placement in the Middle-east circa A.D 30.

Gentiles are no strangers to Jerusalem and surrounding lands of the Biblical narrative and timeline of Jesus' life.  Romans, as brought up above, are the occupiers of that land.  In the New Testament narratives, Jesus' birth and death are both influenced by Roman leaders - Caesar Augustus' order placing Jesus in Bethlehem, and the order of Pontius Pilate ending Jesus' life on the Cross, after his own interrogation of Jesus.  Jesus was said to directly interact with not only Pilate, but a Roman Centurion, a Gentile woman and her daughter, and a few other individuals.  Given these stories, and prevalence of Gentiles in and around the land of Jewish territory of traditional New Testament times, it would not have been possible for Jesus' statement to those at Bountiful to be true.  If you believe the New Testament account, Gentiles indeed did hear Jesus' voice and he manifested himself to them on several occasions, with some of those occasions being critical to the the New Testament narrative (e.g., Jesus' crucifixion by the Romans).

But, let's say that Jesus meant what he is recorded as saying in the Book of Moron - that Gentiles would never hear his voice, or show himself to them plainly (i.e., 'manifest'), then I think we not only have a lot of room to throw out Bible narratives of Jesus' life, but also at least have the cognitive permission to think through other possibilities as to the location of Jesus' life.  It shouldn't be out of bounds or even crazy to consider.

To me, in order to ensure that a Gentile does not either hear Jesus' voice or see him, I think you can start with assuming that he is in a land or world that is free of Gentiles.  Seems pretty straightforward as a thought exercise, at least.  The land of Jerusalem in the Middle-east on our world at the time of the Biblical narrative 2,000 years ago was definitely not such a place.

I don't think there is such a place on our world, in fact, that would free Jesus from being seen and heard by Gentiles.  Thus, again if we believe the Book of Mormon account is accurate, and Jesus is not speaking in hyperbole, I think his prohibition on being heard and seen by Gentiles places his life and ministry not on our world.  It would have had to have been somewhere else.  And, based on past posts and where my thinking has taken me, that place would be on Tirion-Valinor.

A better understanding of Gentiles might make this position even clearer, perhaps.  As would a proposed narrative for how we on this world would have heard about Jesus if he hadn't even lived here.

In my next post, I think I will tackle the question as to why Jesus' position is that no Gentiles will see or hear him.  This should, hopefully, help at least a little with some notion as to identity of this group of Beings, and also help clarify or affirm my own current opinion that Jesus is not speaking in exaggeration or allowing for exception to his rule:  No Gentile will see or hear him (again, in this current story as we are exploring it), and it is the situation they brought upon themselves that makes this so, or a necessity.

I will then maybe explore some thoughts or narrative on how Jesus' teachings were brought to our world, which seems would have been the job of one or more of the 12 Disciples of Tirion.  As in, we would have had an extra-terrestrial visitor, or set of visitors, who would have come among some group of people, teaching them about Jesus.

So, we will see how that all goes.  Let me know if any of the above doesn't really resonate, make sense, doesn't sound accurate or correct, or there are some issues or problems with my thinking that need some additional attention.